The abolition of corporal punishment 5

In the olden days, Witchfinder Generals had to tour the country seeking out suspicious characters.

Luckily for me (given the cost of petrol and the absence of government funding) I don’t have to travel very far to find fakes, frauds, fools and fantasists.

In fact, it’s hard to take a step in any direction without falling over one.

I have no serious objection to them (except where their fantasies revolve around small children and/or the effect of their ravings is to rewrite the socio-educational history of our nation) and spotting them is simply an amusing hobby.

I have no doubt whatever that Elaine and Fran have a certain something in common but, at the end of the day, does it matter?

Not really.

you must not think so ill of us all. Of course there may be the odd sad case but I don’t think this forum has anything to do with fantasising about small children. Most of us over 30 on this forum would have gone to schools where we would have had first hand experience of corporal punishment. For some it cannot be brushed aside but becomes a part of ones sexuality.
For myself i am happily obsessed with thoughts of being put over the knee and soundly spanked by attractive but stern schoolmistresses. For this i must visualise myself as the child i was because if i thought of myself as a middle aged man, being spanked would be ridiculous . I have brought up my own family and i can assure you i havent even dreamed of spanking my wife let alone children!

James, my paranoid little petal.

There’s only one person on this forum of whom I’ve ever thought ‘ill’, and it’s certainly not you.

Apart from the aforementioned idiot, the contributors here seem quite a reasonable lot.

I’m quite sure that the people here are (in the main) no more weird than the average NON-spankophile.

I am not paranoid but happy to be a petal Sarajane! My comments were in no way a criticism of your rigorous quest for the truth and as you know i enjoy your extremely black sense of humour. However, i think sometimes you might give some posters a little more allowance for the ravages that the passage of time may have on their memories. As you know i have suffered from this myself and at times been unable even to remember my own name!
What you say about the average spankophile is true and i think the posters on this forum generally show great warmth, humour and intelligence in their contributions and hopefully only use the kleenex for blowing their noses!!

There are many reasons for supposing that a poster or a posting is ungenuine, and factual innaccuracy is only one of them – although, as you suggest, one should allow for the very real possibility that it’s simply an error of memory.

I sometimes see accounts of the most unusual happenings and yet am not moved to doubt their genuineness if the posting overall has the ring of truth.

Conversely, I sometimes see plain simple accounts of the most unremarkable activities and have no doubt that both poster and posting are about as genuine as a 45p piece.

It must be both annoying and hurtful to have one’s entirely genuine posting denounced as a fake on a BB such as this and, for that reason, I often hold back from expressing my doubts fully.

There’s nothing wrong with fantasising about receiving CP as a child and I’d go as far as to say there’s nothing particularly strange about fantasising about administering reasonable and appropriate CP to deserving children.

It’s only when such thoughts take over one’s life that one should seek to change, although being reincarnated as one’s own grandson is probably NOT the way forward.

In the olden days, Witchfinder Generals had to tour the country seeking out suspicious characters.

Luckily for me (given the cost of petrol and the absence of government funding) I don’t have to travel very far to find fakes, frauds, fools and fantasists.

In fact, it’s hard to take a step in any direction without falling over one.

I have no doubt whatever that Elaine and Fran have a certain something in common but, at the end of the day, does it matter?

I can and do accept that any ‘facts’ put forward in respect of rational debate must also be supported by both the clear understanding of the necessary burden of proof, and an equally clear understanding of how this can be achieved. I await further evidence to support this requirement in this area of knowledge as well as in many others. My continuing interest is contingent on my belief that this will eventually be forthcoming (even if in some cases it takes a full 50 years to achieve.)

My major concern throughout any of my postings on this site or anywhere else over several years has been precisely to avoid re-writing of the socio-educational history of the UK, in the face of clear desire and actions (by controllers of media and social change) aimed at doing precisely that.

I still believe that conjecture can sometimes stimulate valid for further fact however. (It is important to apply relevant tests, and the Witchfinder General role is a valuable spur to creation of these. Remember we no longer burn witches on the basis of supposition.)

Of course ‘I still believe that conjecture can sometimes stimulate valid for further fact however.’ should be ‘I still believe that conjecture can sometimes stimulate valid search for further fact however.’ (and of course proof, and of course I continue to believe this.)

Although it is hard to predict the future i should think it is safe to say that corporal punishment will never make a return to British schools. However, if suppose for the sake of argument it was to be reintroduced again , in what circumstances should it be used? Only for serious offences or for small misdemeanours? Who should be allowed to punish? Only the head? Only a person of the same sex as the child? Should a child ever be punished on the bottom? Or in exceptional circumstances the bare bottom? Should only boys be punished? I should be interested to hear your views.

The most compelling legal reason why corporal punishment will not return to schools is that the European Court of Human Rights forced the British Government to ban the practice entirely. While not impossible to reverse, there would be many major politcal, legal and even economic hurdles: Britain would have to withdraw from the Europen Charter of Human rights, leave Europe and change its own laws.

But beyond that, society is changed. Children’s rights advocacy groups, Social Services, medical authorities and most parents are now on the side of the children themselves, no longer on that of authority, as is the case in almost all Western countries. This has huge momentum.

Given the legal and social upheaval involved, although not impossible (nothing is), its very, very unlikely.

From a personal point of view, I now appreciate the spankings and canings I received (although I definately didn’t at the time!) But corporal punishment can all too easily be used abusively and cruelly, for power, for dominance and for excitement, including sexual, of the discipliner. I know this too from family members and friends (fortunately, this never happened to me).

Just to be strictly accurate, the Court of Human Rights didn’t force the UK govt to abolish CP. The relevant court judgment noted that parents under Article 2 of the Convention had the right to have their children educated in accordance with their “philophical convictions”, and held that opposition to CP was a “philosophical conviction”.

What it explicitly failed to do was find that all school CP was of itself contrary to the Convention. It still hasn’t, as far as I know, though it has found certain specific instances of school CP to be so (Matthew Prince case).

The court judgment could have been met by retaining CP but allowing parents to opt their children out of it. That indeed is what the government of the day at first said it was going to do, but the teachers’ unions and others persuaded them, rightly or wrongly, that this would be impractical (though it is interesting to note that precisely such an arrangement is common in some US states even as we speak, without apparently the world falling in). It was only then that CP was abolished altogether.

In some places like Texas, CP has never gone away. And for a 10 year old this is still the acceptable, court-supported, educator-supported result. Makes me wish I were Canadian.

Getting caned taught me that getting caned hurts. A lot. And I learned that if you want to avoid getting hurt then you’d better buckle down, follow the rules and go with the flow.

Getting paddled taught me that getting paddled hurts. A Lot. And I learned that if you want to avoid getting hurt then you’d better get better at not getting caught at the things that will get you paddled. Be a sneak. If in danger of being discovered, blame others and lie as much as necessary to get out of it.

Those lessons haven’t done me any harm … except for turning me into a dirty old pervert that hangs out in corporal punishment forums and looks at pictures of bruised bottoms. Like the rest of you.
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I personally think it should return to our schools. But I think it should only be administered by the headteacher, as I believe then it would only be used as a last resort as it would be fair to say that teachers would not send each pupil to the headmaster for every minor thing.

I think both boys and girls should recieve it equally, across the bottom, caning the hand always seemed a little barbaric to me (I don’t know why). But I think a cane is too severe for primary school pupils, I think a slipper would be appropriate for under 11’s then the cane after that age. Never on a bare bottom though, too severe and too many accusations of peadophilisms and that.

I beleive that corporal punishment would act as a huge detterent, as when kids run amok in schools now, what can anyone actually do to them? Exclude them? that just seems to make the problems of anti social behaviour and segrigation worse.

“I think both boys and girls should recieve it equally, across the bottom, caning the hand always seemed a little barbaric to me (I don’t know why).”

Presumably you are willing to have your own children undergo this – which might suit you in the short-term. But what about the longer term? “Dave”, in one post in this thread, says:

“Getting caned taught me that getting caned hurts. A lot. And I learned that if you want to avoid getting hurt then you’d better buckle down, follow the rules and go with the flow. Those lessons haven’t done me any harm … except for turning me into a dirty old pervert that hangs out in corporal punishment forums and looks at pictures of bruised bottoms. Like the rest of you.”

Do you fancy your own son as a dirty old pervert fifty years from now? Do you want to find copies of spanking mags under his bed when he’s still a teenager? How will you balance the benefits against the drawbacks?

I cannot see it making a comeback in the near future, or even in my life time, as usual a small minority of do-gooders changed the rules much to this country’s detriment. I can only speak for my personal circle of friends (who are all early to mid twenties) and we are all pro corporal punishment and most people I’ve ever been in a conversation are. But of course governments don’t work for the people, and support what they want!
C
In my experience the majority of women – most of whom never received it – are opposed to school cp, while the majority of men – most of whom did – are mildly in favour. Interesting that.

I am willing to give KathrynP the benefit of the doubt. She has been more forthcoming about herself than most of the posters on this forum. I don’t agree with her position on a return of CP in schools, but I think she is who she claims to be. If she had been subject to CP at school, she might not be so quick to advocate it’s return.

“I think both boys and girls should recieve it equally, across the bottom, caning the hand always seemed a little barbaric to me (I don’t know why).”

Presumably you are willing to have your own children undergo this – which might suit you in the short-term. But what about the longer term? “Dave”, in one post in this thread, says:

Being corporally punished at school does not automatically make you a pervert! Alot of people aged 25 and above have some experience of corporal punishment, does that mean they are all obsessed with it in a sexual way, you are being very small minded to make such a sweeping generaisation.

I believe that it would be good for any children I may have in the future,good when there gaining a P.h. D or getting promoted in their jobs, because they recieved a good education because the classes weren’t constantly interuppted by other pupils, because the teachers can’t actually do anything about it.

If any child of mine was a spanking enthusisast quite frankly it would be none of my business, and what they do in their own bedrooms in their own time (as long as it was legal) is no concewrn of mine.

No I never recieved corporal punishment at School but I did at home.

I would hate to make assumptions about you but I assume you are older than me? And you were from a different era than me, where children actually appreciated the value of getting a good education and good manners etc etc.

We are offered a wealth of opportunities today as young people, we could all virtuaLLY do anything we wanted, this is something that some young people do not appreciate.

I’m not saying that bringing back corporal punishment would instantly change that, but at least it would make an attempt to discourage other selfish pupils from disrupting the classes of people who do weant to learn.
Its not fair that teachers can’t actually do anything of any use to punish offenders, make them write lines? They won’t do it, sent them outside? what does that achieve, they’ll just leave the school and then get excluded.
That creates a constant cycle of unemployment, poverty etc.

Hasn’t anyone else noticed a correlation of antisocial behaviour, crime increases, pupils getting excluded etc. since it has been banned?

Yes Kathyrn I am much older than you. I can tell you that teachers who freely used cp in their classrooms, ruled through fear and intimidation. I know how you feel about disruptive students, however cp is not the answer. Also, kids who didn’t want to be in school left as soon as they could legally. CP just insured they left ASAP.

Your argument doesn’t hold water, but I don’t feel I can convince you because telling someone about abuse just doesn’t carry the same weight as living through it.

I think you’ll find if you read my previous posts properly that I never said that corporal punishment should be bought back into the classrooms, I said I think it should be administered by a headteacher. You did misread one of my previous posting so I would encourage you to make sure you completely understand what you read and get your facts straight before you comment on it.

With regard to saying my argument does not hold water, that is not fair, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are, it does hold water, I could say the exact same thing about yours, but I have respect for others opinions, just because you are older than me it does not make you automatically right.

I think you’ll also find that I never said I thought bringing back corporal punishment would make people stay at school, what I said was, it will be a deterrent for people to keep unfairly interupting/disrupting lessons for people who DO want to be there.
So again, please read my posts properly if you are going to comment on them